Comparing Common Lisp with Gambit w.r.t their library access and object systems

Question

I'm pretty intrigued by Gambit Scheme, in particular by its wide range of supported platforms, and its ability to put C code right in your Scheme source when needed. That said, it is a Scheme, which has fewer "batteries included" as compared to Common Lisp. Some people like coding lots of things from scratch, (a.k.a. vigorous yak-shaving) but not me!

This brings me to my two questions, geared to people who have used both Gambit and some flavor of Common Lisp:

1) Which effectively has better access to libraries? Scheme has fewer libraries than Common Lisp. However, Gambit Scheme has smoother access to C/C++ code & libraries, which far outnumber Common Lisp's libraries. In your opinion, does the smoothness of Gambit's FFI outweigh its lack of native libraries?

2) How do Scheme's object systems (e.g. TinyCLOS, Meroon) compare to Common Lisp's CLOS? If you found them lacking, what feature(s) did you miss most? Finally, how important is an object system in Lisp/Scheme in the first place? I have heard of entire lisp-based companies (e.g. ITA Software) forgoing CLOS altogether. Are objects really that optional in Lisp/Scheme? I do fear that if Gambit has no good object system, I may miss them (my programming background is purely object-oriented).

Thanks for helping an aspiring convert from C++/Python,

-- Matt

PS: Someone with more than 1500 rep, could you please create a "gambit" tag? :) Thanks Jonas!

Answer 1

Sure Scheme as a whole has fewer libraries in the defined standard, but any given Scheme implementation usually builds on that standard to include more "batteries included" type of functions.

Gambit, for example, uses the Snow package system which will give you access to several support libraries.

Other Schemes fare even better, having access to more (or better) support libraries. Both Racket (with PlaneT) and Chicken (with eggs) immediately come to mind.

That said, the Common Lisp is quite rich also and a large number of interesting and useful libraries are a simple asdf-install away.

As for Scheme object systems, I personally tend to favor Chicken Scheme and have taken to favoring coops. That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TinyCLOS. Either would serve well and don't really find anything to be lacking. Though that last statement might have more to do with the fact that I don't tend to rely on a lot of object oriented-isms when writing Scheme. Both systems in my experience tend to surface when I want to write "protocols" and then have a way of specializing on the protocol, if that makes sense.

Answer 2

1) I haven't used Gambit Scheme, so I cannot really tell how smooth the C/C++ integration is. But all Common Lisps I have used have fully functional C FFI:s. So the availability of C libraries is the same. It takes some work to integrate, but I assume this is the case with Gambit Scheme as well. After all, Lisp and C are different languages..? But maybe you have a different experience, I would like to learn more in that case.

You may be interested in Quicklisp, a really good new Common Lisp project - it makes it very easy to install a lot of quality libraries.

2) C++ and Python are designed to use OOP and classes as the typical means of encapsulating and structuring data. CLOS does not have this ambition at all. Instead, it provides generic functions that can be specialized for certain types of arguments - not necessarily classes. Essentially this enables OOP, but in Common Lisp, OOP is a convenient feature rather than something fundamental for getting things done.

I think CLOS is a lot more well-designed and flexible than the C++ object model - TinyCLOS should be no different in that aspect.